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Those 'Six Consequences' to Expect if CA's Prop-8 Fails to Pass

Submitted by David Hart on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 13:33
  • Christian Right
  • Proposition-8
  • Same-sex Marriage

I keep seeing this screed in the echo chamber. About the only thing that this proves is that the Christian Right are capable of counting to six. What remains in doubt is any commitment on their part to be truthful. I guess that truth is a "value" of little or no importance. Massachusetts recognized same-sex marriage and hasn't fallen into the Atlantic Ocean. Presumably, that is why the Christian Right has eliminated the "end of world" apocalyptic rhetoric.

1. Children in public schools will be taught that both traditional marriage and same-sex marriage are okay. The California Education Code already requires that health education classes instruct children about marriage. (§51890) Therefore, if the definition of marriage is changed, children will be taught that marriage is a relation between any two adults. There will be serious clashes between the secular school system and the right of parents to teach their children their own values and beliefs.

Utter nonsense. The entire section reads: "Family health and child development, including the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood." There is nothing in the code about teaching anything about defining marriage.

2. Churches will be sued if they refuse to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their religious buildings that are open to the public. Ask whether your pastor, priest, minister, bishop, or rabbi is ready to perform such marriages in your chapels and sanctuaries.

More idiocy. Equally untrue. Nobody can -- nor would -- require any minister to marry a couple if that marriage did not meet the requirements of that religion or sect.

3. Religious adoption agencies will be challenged by government agencies to give up their long-held right to place children only in homes with both a mother and a father. Catholic Charities in Boston has already closed its doors because of the legalization of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts.

Actually, in the case of Catholic Charities, this was about money first. The United Way of Massachusetts Bay, which provided $1.2 million annually to Catholic Charities and was the largest private funder of the agency, planned to review its funding if the agency discriminated against gays and lesbians in its adoption work.

4. Religions that sponsor private schools and which provide housing for married students will be required to provide housing for same-sex couples, even if it runs counter to church doctrine, or lose tax exemptions and benefits.

They needn't worry too much about gay and lesbian couples opting to attend those schools. They currently would be obliged to provide housing to mixed-race couples even if doing so is against their religion.

5. Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages will be sued for hate speech and could be fined by the government. It has already happened in Canada, one of six countries that have legalized gay marriage.

Hate speech, no matter how offensive, is protected by the First Amendment. Apparently, the Christian Right is confused about exactly what country the state of California is in.

6. It will cost you money. A change in the definition of marriage will bring a cascade of lawsuits. Even if courts eventually find in favor of a defender of traditional marriage (highly improbable given today’s activist judges), think of the money – your money, your church contributions – that will have to be spent on legal fees.

That would be true if the Alliance Defense Fund and Liberty Counsel file numerous frivolous law suits. Look at how much money that was wasted in Oregon on appeals of appeals. That notion is not supported by the litigation record in Massachusetts.

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  • David Hart's blog

Submitted by OttO (not verified) on Sun, 09/14/2008 - 02:41.

I was linked here under the premise that this refuted the 'six consequences'. Well, the author is good at utilizing words like 'idiocy' and 'nonsense'. #1. How do you discuss marriage in a health class without describing what marriage is? Talk about utter nonsense! #2. Your saying it is untrue does not make it so. Just recently, a church in Atlantic City was sued for rejecting a request by a 'married' lesbian couple to have their wedding in the church's pavilion. The couple won. That's a chip in religious freedom which I feel is one of many to come. #3. The chief concern was about beliefs and religious freedom. The UW was a factor and completely in sync with the initial concern. Is this honest on your part when you try to erase the religious aspect of this and try to make it all out to be about money? The Bible, orders from the Vatican, the fact that the UW, which is not a church, is forced to challenge or defund Catholic Charities, none of that matters - it's just about the dough, man. #4. Again, you're wrong. There are plenty of legal scuffles going on between gay students or employees and their religious schools. St Thomas in MN was sued for not letting a lesbian teacher share a hotel room with her partner on a class field trip. I'm not sure if it went to trial yet but if they win, it's only a matter of time before it applies to housing. $5. Funny thing about Canada is that they go into even more detail in what is their 'first amendment': freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of belief, freedom of expression, freedom of the press and of other media of communication, freedom of peaceful assembly, and freedom of association. You can give these simplistic rejections there is such a thing as trending and 15 years ago you would have been one of those mocking religious sentiments by saying, 'gay marriage is never going to happen' and someone would have pointed out that it's already happening in Scandinavian countries and you would let them know they are confused about what country they are talking about. 6. I don't even know what to say to this. You're quite talented at creating diversions. You're not even responding, you're just coming up with a counter-complaint. But I can't hold it against you because someone else made it seem like this was refuting big six.

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Submitted by Robert in OC (not verified) on Tue, 09/09/2008 - 22:01.

6. "It will cost you money..." That would be true if the Alliance Defense Fund and Liberty Counsel file numerous frivolous law suits. So for people who disagree, their option is to become like Massachusetts. Basically shut up and sit down. Resistance is futile. Not your best argument.

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Submitted by perkinsprique on Tue, 09/09/2008 - 22:54.

"So for people who disagree, their option is to become like Massachusetts. Basically shut up and sit down. Resistance is futile. Not your best argument." When judges overturned the prohibition, ADF claimed that they were activist judges defying the will of the people in spite of the fact that the legislator voted twice to repeal the law - something that the Governor vetoed. So, assuming that Prop8 is defeated, will ADF go into court to defy the will of the people? The idea that an initiative should not be defeated because the losing proponents are going to cause litigation is ridiculous on its face.\ If you disagree with same-sex marriage then don't marry someone of the same sex. Beyond that, don't try to impose your tight-assed values on the rest of us. Two guys down the street who get married doesn't harm you in any way at all. Get over it and get on with your life. Mark my words. Within the next 25 years, opposition to same-sex marriage will be as socially unacceptable as opposition to integration or multi-racial marriage.

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Submitted by Barack Obama (not verified) on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 07:32.

As a resident of the twin tiers in the State of New York, I am embarrassed by a bizarre piece of legislation, which shows more favoritism to a homosexual person who pays taxes than any other citizen in the USA. It appears that the leadership and some of Ithaca’s residents have become so idle and lazy that they have adopted idols of Sodom and Gomorrah. Currently their population is declining and if it weren’t for its two university it would be a bankrupt city. It is in social waste. There were two male youths, aged 14-15, who experimented with homosexuality for the FIRST TIME. They both contracted HIV. A health teacher at our local school confirmed this information. The liberal public heath agencies and Planned Parenthood covered this story up and it never reached the media. The two boys parents were embarrassed and ashamed they did not want this information leaked publicly. I also predict that Ithaca’s new little health program will cost area taxpayers even more as our local government economically funds this physical and moral dysfunction. The shame-filled history of the homosexual has left nations less populated, sicker, and emotionally and financially drained. Even the vast majority of their leaders per capita have fought hard to preserve the STD curse on the earth, while taking pleasure in destroying the minds of children with despicable acts of lewdness and molestation. Homosexuality is a DEATH-style, which destroys the family, manhood, womanhood, and childhood in order the mock at God's divine order and destroy the future generations of humanity. Sometimes youth are bent toward to same sex when they were exposed to sexual images of the same sex during puberty while lacking a father figure at home. This emotional disorder is spread primarily by pornography and child molestation of the same sex. Then feelings of rejection from the opposite-sex have perpetuated this unhealthy dysfunction into adulthood. Homosexual Child Molesters http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php NAMBLA And Homosexual Activism http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/nine.php Exposed: The Myth That Psychiatry Has Proven That Homosexual Behavior Is Normal http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/eleven.php There is a way out :-) http://www.traditionalvalues.org/resources/index.php

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Submitted by Leslie (not verified) on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 20:10.

2. Churches will be sued if they refuse to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their religious buildings that are open to the public. The New Jersey case involved a couple who wanted a Civil Union ceremony, not a marriage ceremony, in a PUBLIC BUILDING, not a religious building. It came down to the church deciding to loose or keep tax-exempt status for the public building. The church chose to admit that property was public and be taxed accordingly. Public property means all of the NJ states laws apply. The Catholic Charities case in Boston is also striking for the 1998 refusal to ask for their religious exemption even when given the chance and their continued placement of some kids with gay couples. When the money issue with United Way came along - the church made its moral decision - keep the money. It's great they're down to just 6 non-factual arguments all centered around religion vs marriage equality. Isn't flying in California anymore. Latest poll on Prop 8 to ban marriage equality: For 40%, Against 54% and climbing.

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Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 19:51.

Actually, it's already being taught in school, ask any school teacher what the established curriculum is, and they'll tell you. I, as a religious person, do not want that being taught to my children as "acceptable". I also resent that teachers are not allowed to use the words mom and dad because of pressure from "gay-rights" groups. The have to say "the person who raises you". The person who raises you? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've lived in a lot of states, and countries, and known a lot of gay people, (some of them, very good friends of mine) and here in california, homosexuals have a sense of entitlement that I've never seen before. The whole world must bend to their will, or they have the right to throw a hissy fit when they don't get their way. I guess next California will have to allow for adults to marry children!! It's the next logical step!! Pedophile-Rights?

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Submitted by perkinsprique on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 20:40.

Most of this is the usual discriminatory drivel including "some of my best friends are [ gay | Jews | black | fill-in-the-blank ]"
here in california, homosexuals have a sense of entitlement
Does that mean that they won't put up with the BS? Good for them. We are good as you and we don't intend to ride in the back of the bus. Nor do we intend to sit quitely while others try to marginalize us. We are your doctors, ministers, accountants, firemen, teachers and cops. We are your sons and daughters. We are your boss, your shop steward and the owners of the companies you work for. Get over it.
It’s the next logical step!! Pedophile-Rights?
Do you want to pretend that you cannot differentiate between illegal and lawful conduct? We can read all this crap on AFA's or FRC's web site. It doesn't make sense from them and it doesn't make sense from you.

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Submitted by Maria (not verified) on Sun, 08/31/2008 - 04:42.

Can you imagine the same argument in the '60s but with "interracial couples" instead of gay couples? -Children will be taught that interracial marriages are okay. etc.

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Submitted by Chino Blanco (not verified) on Fri, 08/29/2008 - 04:39.

Nice job! I've linked to your rebuttal here and hope folks help spread the word about these six lies.

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Submitted by Kenster999 (not verified) on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 20:25.

Actually, it sounds like claim #1 is correct. And that's a Good Thing. Children should be taught that marriage can be either mixed-sex or same-sex. Besides, what's the alternative -- have the school teach that same-sex marriage is illegal, when it's not? Of course, all instruction should be age-appropriate.

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Submitted by Patrick O (not verified) on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 15:38.

Thanks for doing this - keep spreading the word. I had diaried about it at dKos http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/20/151336/211/312/571252 And what I find most amazing is that these religions have compeletely disrecarded the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness. They are lying, and they know that they are lying - they do it deliberately

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Submitted by Stephanie (not verified) on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 23:29.

No one in Canada has ever been fined by the government for preaching against same-sex marriage. There was a case a few years ago where the Catholic Bishop of Calgary wrote an open letter calling for the the re-criminalization of homosexuality and someone filed a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission, but the complaint was later dropped. I repeat: No one in Canada has ever been fined for preaching against same-sex marriage.

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Submitted by dobsonsux on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 21:05.

I see that you cross posted a link at the original article on townhall.com. I would be curious. Could you check your logs to get a count of referrals from that page?

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Submitted by Fritz (not verified) on Wed, 08/27/2008 - 20:58.

Excellent retort. Thanks for posting it.

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